Comments on: Bridge engineers say they have less control over projects /news/2012/07/11/bridge-engineers-say-they-have-less-control-over-projects/ Building and Construction News in Portland, Oregon and the Pacific Northwest Fri, 31 Aug 2012 22:52:07 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.6 By: Bridge engineers | Mohamedlovers /news/2012/07/11/bridge-engineers-say-they-have-less-control-over-projects/#comment-72658 Fri, 31 Aug 2012 22:52:07 +0000 /?p=85421#comment-72658 […] Bridge engineers say they have less control over projects | Daily …status of bridge engineering at the end of the 20th century in the area of general transportation structures is summarized. The focus is on bridge structure types, … […]

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By: Marvin /news/2012/07/11/bridge-engineers-say-they-have-less-control-over-projects/#comment-70387 Sun, 15 Jul 2012 00:54:47 +0000 /?p=85421#comment-70387 Our engineers built astonishingly beautiful and practical bridges in the depression era. I hope to see a return to the can-do spirit of that time, but with modern materials. Our inability to create a sensible CRC, coupled with the region’s inability to halt a perverse port strike bodes ill for our future.

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By: Franklin J. Kapustka, PE /news/2012/07/11/bridge-engineers-say-they-have-less-control-over-projects/#comment-70375 Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:37:52 +0000 /?p=85421#comment-70375 I am a former bridge designer with the Iowa DOT. In 1995, I walked away after receiving various threats and having my civil rights violated. Nearly every firm I have dealt with since has perpetuated the insanity. Therefore, I have absolutely no sympathy for the engineers. Every design has constraints, deal with them. The constraints placed on structural engineers are pretty minimal.
Oregon has at least 12 major river crossings. One type of bridge could be designed to replace them all. The current design of the Columbia crossing is not what I would envision. I personally would move the Trimet light rail crossing West of the other railroad crossing to the west of I-5 as a stand alone structure. It’s design could be based on existing award winning railroad bridges. Secondly, I would look at adding a bascule bridge to the existing railroad crossing and any new spans so that the main shipping channel can be moved off the northern shore of the Columbia. This would facilitate a high bridge in the center of the Columbia with a Bascule feature. The Eramus bridge in Europe has a 292 ft span Bascule bridge. Support could be constructed adjacent and between the existing bridges. The existing footprint of the crossing would be a bit wider, but not overly so.
Instead of expanding I-84, I would favor another expressway from Eastern Oregon all the way to Tillamook and from the Dalles to California. Too much is funneled down I-5 and I-84. Putting all the eggs in one basket is a mistake.
Steel is often the least desirable material because of past issues with corrosion, toxic paint, and associated maintenance. The Iowa Dot developed a paint that molecularly bonds to steel, which may alleviate some of the issues mentioned.
Reactive Powder Concrete has lead to a 40% reduction in materials on a compression arch bridge in China. The Iowa DOT has cookie cutter county bridges and culverts that could be expanded to be placed anywhere in the world. The could easily incorporate advancements in materials such as Reactive Powder Concrete with strengths upward of 25 ksi and 75 ksi or high rebar. Designs could be made to be nearly completely precast and prefabricated. Trucks could be made of the finest Aircraft aluminum to move these sections. The technology has been around a while. It is time to modernize.

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By: Anti Evironmentalist /news/2012/07/11/bridge-engineers-say-they-have-less-control-over-projects/#comment-70374 Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:13:29 +0000 /?p=85421#comment-70374 There’s a reason Portland, OR and Oregon as a state has the weakest economy along the Pacific coastal states.

The same environmentalist who opposed the LNG, Coal Terminal any form industry in Oregon are responsible for the process and cost debacle of the CRC.

Engineers have became wussies, as their professional practice has been hi-jacked by ignorant environmentalist. Today environmentalist and their tree hugging allies are illegally practising traffic engineering and determining the number of lanes of proposed freeways.

They’re also involved in bridge design,as they’ve introduced new design parameters and restrictions that affect bridge pier foundation and superstructure material. Their enablers in the biological science community are now issuing false papers in line with their climate change quackery to assert thatr boulders and rip-rap absorb heat to warm rivers and eventually kill fish, in Pacific Northwest where the shadowy sun appears reluctantly for barely 36 days!

The engineering profession in the US needs to fight back to preserve the integrity of their profession. The first line of action is to close the EPA, which has transformed into a job killing organization issuing impossible demands each day.

The CRC is also a victim of its location -Portland. If this bridge were to be anywhere outside Multnomah County, it would’ve been built. The outrageous demands, concerns and provisions from special interest groups all from the Oregon side of the stateline lay bare the small-mindedness of the politics of the Portland area. The other farcical aspect of this process is the insistence that Light Rail trackway becomes part of rising cost to stroke the ego of the witlessat Metro. Poor Vancouverites, they’ll have to shed $$ for a rail line 99% of them will never use. The gangs now have a free ride to establish bases in Vancouver, yipee!

If you want to some of the dumbest ideas stalling economic development in Oregon, just checkout the HOV lanes on I-5 at the Portland side through the Delta Park bottleneck portion of the freeway.

There’s absolutely no redeeming value in a project with such extensive public involvement process. It defeats the very purpose of public involvement. Lets leave engineers to do what they do best. Lets leave WSDOT and ODOT to build a basic bridge for at least $600 Million. The world will continue to turn, no salmon will be extinct and there’ll no toll.

Off to shoot the sea lions.

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By: Michael McCulloch AIA /news/2012/07/11/bridge-engineers-say-they-have-less-control-over-projects/#comment-70372 Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:34:15 +0000 /?p=85421#comment-70372 Great to have a dialog between engineers! The CRC appears to be a project that everyone believes could be so much better….but how to get there?

Can we take what has been done to date as ‘research into the forces – physical and political – that are affecting the solutions? Then engage a design team to take the overview afresh and re-start the design process with a few clear objectives that must include land use impacts, aesthetics, and economies and thereby empower the designers to do their best work. As an architect I understand that the definition of the problem at hand is key in enabling the design team to be creative and accurate in their work. I believe that this bridge project to date has suffered from a narrow definition of the design challenge.

The bridges of Norman Foster and Santiago Calatrava show how elegant and compelling an engineering solution can be. These beautiful structures gain broad-based support as points of regional pride. With several years of “research” done – clearances, environmental impacts, costs, traffic counts, tolling strategies, etc. – we can now more accurately define the design challenge we have. This CRC will be the image for Vancouver… for better or worse. The creative engineering talent is there to be commissioned if we can only see broadly enough to engage them.

Although nobody wants to invoke the Tram, I would argue that it is both beautiful and economical as well as facilitating dramatic leaps in urban development along the Willamette River. I believe the Tram is an example of bigger thinking and high expectations that we can learn from.

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By: Carol /news/2012/07/11/bridge-engineers-say-they-have-less-control-over-projects/#comment-70371 Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:11:09 +0000 /?p=85421#comment-70371 What an enlightening article. Critical, yet intelligent and informative as opposed to some of the hysteria that seems to surround this project, so thank you for the well thought out observations and forthright responses. As an engineer with over 30 years experience working on Mega Projects, I do not know what, if any, the solutions are to the current political environment surrounding these projects that tends to significantly drive up costs and extend delivery dates, but I am sure the lynch mob type of mentality in opposition often encountered in the midst of dealing with all the other project challenges, though well intended, does nothing to assuage the situation.

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By: Bob /news/2012/07/11/bridge-engineers-say-they-have-less-control-over-projects/#comment-70370 Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:54:17 +0000 /?p=85421#comment-70370 Speaking as one, engineers have a tendency to be somewhat narrow in their views. We are taught to be practical, logical, and focus on solving the problem at hand. Dealing with regulatory and public involvement issues force us to look outside of the techincal box, something that makes us very uncomfortable. We tend to assume the general public and regulatory staff can’t possibly understand the work we do. In the more than 25 years I have been in the engineering field, I have been proven wrong on this count many, many times. Embracing the oversight process gives us an opportunity to expand our horizons personally and professionally, and advances the profession as a whole.

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By: Michael McCulloch AIA /news/2012/07/11/bridge-engineers-say-they-have-less-control-over-projects/#comment-70368 Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:35:02 +0000 /?p=85421#comment-70368 This article is a great example of yet another special interest group – bridge designers – saying that their priorities should prevail. The initial problems with the CRC were caused by a narrow focus by highway engineers who dilligently refused to include other considerations as they proceeded to design a project that ignored urban design, social impacts, aesthetics, as well as current traffic trends and quantities. No wonder we are still going in circles without a comprehensive project that could do so much for the region.

Empowering the bridge designer IS the right direction in my estimation. But it must be the right bridge designer who is capable of taking the broadest views and creating compelling alternatives to bring to the public and DOTs. The committees that were assembled to advise on these urban and aesthetic issues were ignored. The decision-making processes devolved into ear-plugging and eye-covering strategies sanctioned by the Governor in order to move the project along. We only need to look to similar size and scope bridge projects in Europe to see this comprehensive approach…headed by designers.

The saddest part of the CRC saga is how big an opportunity is being missed in this contentious process. This is a time to create a symbol for the re-centering of our urban pattern here in Vancouver/Portland with the Columbia at the center line. It is a time to transcend the boundaries artificially placed between the states. Utilizing federal dollars to commission and build this improved link could be both an economic boon and an underscoring of the progressive brand we have fought so hard to achieve in this region.

So I heartily agree with the thesis that the bridge designers need more authority and control. But the series of designers thus far has been a parade of engineers who limit rather than expand the vision and creativity brought to this spectacular opportunity.

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By: RGJ1 /news/2012/07/11/bridge-engineers-say-they-have-less-control-over-projects/#comment-70367 Thu, 12 Jul 2012 15:26:30 +0000 /?p=85421#comment-70367 From a frustrated Engineer. How did we ever get along in the past, building thousands of bridges without this interference? We have an example of the downside of excessive regulation here. The only answer is to drastically reduce the size of government and require the EPA to obtain congressional approval of any new rules.

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